Curse

Muppet87 · Sep 19, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

That backline may be the most flexible, especially in an 8v8 fight, but it's going to have huge weaknesses versus a 4-4 or 5-3 split because the BL monk will have a hard time keeping the squad as well as him or herself alive.

I agree with you that the BL would have a disadvantage in a 4-4 or 5-3 split situation but what im debating is that two BL backline isnt the ideal and most flexible combination of monking you could have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

I wouldn't go so far as to say that one boon and one BL is the ideal team.

My main point is 1boon + 1BL compared to 2BL is more dependable in most situations(imo). I'm a moderate man so I believe that moderation is key XD. Gimmic is on oneside of the spectrum where as Ballanced is more in the middle. So I guess my point is when you start bouncing from one extreme to another you tend to loose the effectiveness when you have a backline that is able to cope better against one type of pressure opposed to another(BL is awesome against hex stack but AoE pressure such as Balth is alittle bit harder to control) instead of having a backline that generaly deals with ALL sorts equally.

I just thought I should clerify my position

Agree or disagree..I still think the Mo/A BL is overrated, not that BL in general blows since all builds have theyre places in the meta.

sm2006 · Sep 19, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

nice posting all, but can we hear about monk armours and weapons for certain builds? Or made up monk gvg builds, post in i want to see some good ideas in this thread

Patccmoi · Sep 19, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceCreaMPiMP

Mo/A aren't garbage... The rest rit is looking up for sure, especially with the mass hex/condition degen thats going around atm. Resilient is am amazing spell... However, I've always found that the good teams smarten up after they can kill anything and focus the spirits after a while. That's a huge problem for the rits. Your best healing and sometimes your energy management is literally sitting out on the battlefield waiting to be attacked; who wouldn't take a shot at it? Also placing the spirits far int eh backline isn't an option as the radius that Mend Body adn Soul uses is pretty finiky and small... But yes, rit do have a few spells in the rest line that are amazing.

For Rest Rit, honestly spirits aren't that hard to keep alive most of the time. Most teams don't have what it takes to quickly dispatch spirits in the current metagame (not that it's not possible, just that it's not used). We only use Life as restoration spirit, and we have a R/Rt offensive spirit spammer providing a spirit base for the team that he puts just behind the monks (so in range for Resto Rt, but harder to get to for their team). With ward vs foes in front and all the spirits pounding, few warriors dare to go in there. If people used ranger for nuking instead of condition/interrupts only (ranger spike being an obvious exception), then they could dispatch spirits at a decent rate, but atm the other team would need to devote 1-2 players to killing spirits that are reapplied continuously, and then they're not pressuring us so the Rt doesn't really need his spirit-powered skills. You can also use Empathic Removal for elite if you want to be sure to have a condition/hex removal independant of having spirits around. We use Expel Hexes as elite on our Rt personally.

For Mo/As, personally i think the problem is that many misunderstand its strength and in what build it's good. Mo/A sacrifices energy management for survivability, and so the healing required by the team must be lower. This mean everyone must be able to limit damage on themselves a lot, rangers with distortion for example, warriors, all casters with distortion or other defensive stances/enchants, Assassins with AoD/Dark Escape, etc.

In this case, they DO NOT need high energy management, because the damage output dealt by the other team is seriously reduced by everyone, so the most important part of their job is staying alive. Since no one should die too quickly, they can make a better use of Signet of Devotion too.

The big problem is with people trying to fit Mo/A in a build where they will have Dom Mesmers without Distortion, E/Mos midfight without wards, etc. Then you have soft targets that are easy to take down, and it's easy to run the monks out of energy fast by spiking them over and over. Maybe you can save them, but you must spend high energy to do so, and with bad energy management it just doesn't work. Mo/As work perfectly in an environment where damage dealt to anyone is well controlled.

romO · Sep 19, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muppet87

I agree with you that the BL would have a disadvantage in a 4-4 or 5-3 split situation but what im debating is that two BL backline isnt the ideal and most flexible combination of monking you could have.

My main point is 1boon + 1BL compared to 2BL is more dependable in most situations(imo). I'm a moderate man so I believe that moderation is key XD. Gimmic is on oneside of the spectrum where as Ballanced is more in the middle. So I guess my point is when you start bouncing from one extreme to another you tend to loose the effectiveness when you have a backline that is able to cope better against one type of pressure opposed to another(BL is awesome against hex stack but AoE pressure such as Balth is alittle bit harder to control) instead of having a backline that generaly deals with ALL sorts equally.

I just thought I should clerify my position

Agree or disagree..I still think the Mo/A BL is overrated, not that BL in general blows since all builds have theyre places in the meta.

I agree with everything you just said. And thanks for clarifying. It's not that I didn't understand what you meant, it's just that I was curious as to your rationale, and that pretty much sums it up well. Well, you didn't provide examples as to why Mo/A is overrated, but I'll let you get away with that one because... ugh, I kind of want to make some kind of sarcastic comment here, as is my way, but I'm not interested in starting a flame war.

Oscar aka 'Hanz' · Sep 19, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

i've definately changed my mind about gift of health on boon monks, having run it more i like it a LOT

Thom · Sep 20, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

My guild is having similar "discussions" about the relative virtues of a healing monk. Without going into the bloody details of the build, it is difficult to get a healing based monk that is superior to a b-light monk. We don't have enough enchants to run a healing light build, and I'm not satisfied with the notion of running an infuser with energy management elite.

Does anyone have any opinions about this type of build? Efficient monking becomes a bit of a wasteland once you get away from your standard buidls.

dgb · Sep 20, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Mo/A sacrifices energy management for survivability,

It's not just that, it's the maneuverability that it gains as well. My guild currently runs a split build and I tend to be a Mo/A with shadow of haste/dark escape as my setup - when the offence splits off I'll often linger a while at the flag stand knowing I have my own speed buffs to catch up, or I'll leave a shadow of haste mark point near the flag stand so if it turns out the offence doesn't need a monk I can move back extremely quickly.

We played a game on Fire Island last night where the ability to flick instantly between the base and the flagstand allowed us to play a lot more aggressively, when a gank was threatened I could just instantly drop back and return very quickly. So it's not just survivability, it's maneuverability that it gives you. If you're playing a build designed for a flag stand fight I think you're wasting half the potential of the Mo/A.

Patrograd · Sep 20, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Last night we ran two mo/a BLs for a while, and then a mo/a BL and a mo/me boon.

Speaking as a warrior I genuinely didnt notice any difference between the two.

*shrug*

Sep 20, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

For Rest Rit, honestly spirits aren't that hard to keep alive most of the time. Most teams don't have what it takes to quickly dispatch spirits in the current metagame (not that it's not possible, just that it's not used). We only use Life as restoration spirit, and we have a R/Rt offensive spirit spammer providing a spirit base for the team that he puts just behind the monks (so in range for Resto Rt, but harder to get to for their team). With ward vs foes in front and all the spirits pounding, few warriors dare to go in there. If people used ranger for nuking instead of condition/interrupts only (ranger spike being an obvious exception), then they could dispatch spirits at a decent rate, but atm the other team would need to devote 1-2 players to killing spirits that are reapplied continuously, and then they're not pressuring us so the Rt doesn't really need his spirit-powered skills. You can also use Empathic Removal for elite if you want to be sure to have a condition/hex removal independant of having spirits around. We use Expel Hexes as elite on our Rt personally.

For Mo/As, personally i think the problem is that many misunderstand its strength and in what build it's good. Mo/A sacrifices energy management for survivability, and so the healing required by the team must be lower. This mean everyone must be able to limit damage on themselves a lot, rangers with distortion for example, warriors, all casters with distortion or other defensive stances/enchants, Assassins with AoD/Dark Escape, etc.

In this case, they DO NOT need high energy management, because the damage output dealt by the other team is seriously reduced by everyone, so the most important part of their job is staying alive. Since no one should die too quickly, they can make a better use of Signet of Devotion too.

The big problem is with people trying to fit Mo/A in a build where they will have Dom Mesmers without Distortion, E/Mos midfight without wards, etc. Then you have soft targets that are easy to take down, and it's easy to run the monks out of energy fast by spiking them over and over. Maybe you can save them, but you must spend high energy to do so, and with bad energy management it just doesn't work. Mo/As work perfectly in an environment where damage dealt to anyone is well controlled.

This build is what can make the rit throw out more raw healing than any monk build I can think of that would be useful; so in this case, yes the rest rit works quite well. At the same time, you do show how there needs to be a lot of building around the rest rit for him to shine. The Mo/A is far more than a choice of survivability. The Mo/A is a strong build because, if the monk can use teh build correctly, can mitigate a great deal of damage and allieviate pressure. Small example: a warrior train is forming. The monk sees is coming and kites to teh backline where he might be chased down by the warriors. Monk returns to his partner monk or another mid/backliner leaving the warriors crippled in teh back line. The adren spike is wasted. How many heals would have ot be thrown out to deal with that spike? certainly more than 5 energy and some nice kiting...

Where the Mo/A fails is on teams that haven't figured out that all midliners MUST kite to mitigate damage. A boon prot can compensate for this very bad habit much better. At the same time, why encourage it by not letting them die?

Patccmoi · Sep 21, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceCreaMPiMP

Where the Mo/A fails is on teams that haven't figured out that all midliners MUST kite to mitigate damage. A boon prot can compensate for this very bad habit much better. At the same time, why encourage it by not letting them die?

It's not always that simple. Unless they have specific skills (as i said, basically Distortion all over the place, or sitting in wards and never moving, or being in an Aegis chain), other midliners might not have what it takes to mitigate damage.

Kiting is all well and good (and, well, vital to any good team) but it only goes so far. If a W/A does Death Charge-Shove on you, forget kiting. If you're nuked by rangers, eles, etc. forget kiting. If an Assassin appears on you and knocks you down in a few seconds, if you're hit by a Deep Freeze, Crippling Shot, Siphon Speed... kiting isn't always possible, it's just not. And Mo/As don't have the energy management to keep midliners alive under heavy pressure when their ability to kite is limited.

Again, i'm not saying they're bad. But they need the build to be made around them too to some extent, or they have glaring weaknesses. But in a build that favors their strengths (survivability, and mobility that's true) they are very potent monks.

latbec · Sep 21, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I have never been a fan of boon prots running GoH and never will.

First, you need to sink points in healing, so that makes you spread your points too thin. Second, GoH looks like you're giving a big healing boost when you see the 3 blue numbers popup; however you will achieve the same efficiency if not more by just casting a RoF. Sure enough you just see 2 blue numbers popup but the next damage the RoFed guy takes is neglected and converted into healing. That's far superior imo. 'Prot+healing' >> 'healing only'. Third, I'd rather have the boon prot of my team entirely focus on intercepting all sort of spikes with RoF and Prot spirit than waste his energy healing with GoH, or even worse, trying to catch spikes with GoH.

Some people will say "yeah, but GoH is nice to use when divine boon is down because of the 10s nerf, etc.. etc..". Honestly, if somebody tells me such thing, I will tell him to seriously consider playing a BL monk or switch to another class

.

llsektorll · Sep 21, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

even with all the boon prot hate you have to admit boon prots have more versatility in GvG than blight monks especially at VoD.. now that VoD is faster i'd recommend sticking to variations of boon prots and not VoD.

moriz · Sep 21, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

running GoH on a boon prot does not spread the attributes dramatically, and gives extra options of play.

for example, i usually play mine with Divine Boon turned off, and use Energy Drain as the e-management. opponent mesmers know that i'm a boon prot, but can't find an enchantment to strip. it becomes a psychological battle. they'll probably focus their enchant stripping elsewhere, and will be less likely to remove it when i do turn on Divine Boon to catch spikes.

Patrograd · Sep 21, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

for example, i usually play mine with Divine Boon turned off,

So you;re a standard prot monk with a skill you usually dont use? Odd imo

romO · Sep 21, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by latbec

I have never been a fan of boon prots running GoH and never will.

First, you need to sink points in healing, so that makes you spread your points too thin.

Not really. Generally, an e-drain boon prot will be running 14 divine, 9 inspiration, 10 prot. The extra 6 heal on divine boon and the extra heals of 4 on rof and spirit bond are not very big sacrifices to run 13 divine, 9 heal, 9 prot, 9 inspiration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latbec

Second, GoH looks like you're giving a big healing boost when you see the 3 blue numbers popup; however you will achieve the same efficiency if not more by just casting a RoF. Sure enough you just see 2 blue numbers popup but the next damage the RoFed guy takes is neglected and converted into healing. That's far superior imo. 'Prot+healing' >> 'healing only'.

GoH looks like you're giving a big healing boost because you are. I never look at the numbers popping up from my heals and I can't think of a single competent monk that would. You know what your skills are supposed to do, and if you have to look at the numbers to find out if it is going through, if he is deep wounded or hexed, or if you have boon up, then you need to stop playing monk. The efficiency of GoH is far greater than rof. RoF will only heal for more than gift (96 heal) if the next damage that the target takes is 48 or more, and will only negate up to 54 (net health saved 108). However, those are not the situations that GoH is for. Very often, a target will be taken to relatively low life from pressure damage or degen, and throwing on a rof will only cause the divine boon and divine favor heals to trigger, and then the rof to wear out due to duration. Or if it is hit, it is for a miniscule amount of damage and the heal from the enchantment itself is nearly worthless. GoH is more consistent and can bring up a low target to full in pressure situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latbec

Third, I'd rather have the boon prot of my team entirely focus on intercepting all sort of spikes with RoF and Prot spirit than waste his energy healing with GoH, or even worse, trying to catch spikes with GoH.

No one is going to be trying to catch spikes with GoH. Against builds with surgers, hexers, smite, condition spreaders, and multiple warriors, you can never focus purely on spike. Many of the builds that people run these days have no elements of spike built in other than the adrenaline chain of a single warrior on a single target. A monk needs to be versatile and be ready to keep his or her team up in all scenarios.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latbec

Some people will say "yeah, but GoH is nice to use when divine boon is down because of the 10s nerf, etc.. etc..". Honestly, if somebody tells me such thing, I will tell him to seriously consider playing a BL monk or switch to another class

.

That isn't part of the primary rationale for running GoH on a boon, but it is nice to have a big heal when boon is stripped or you are forced to drop it because of NR. It's a valid consideration. Also, no thanks on your proposition to change classes.

moriz · Sep 21, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

So you;re a standard prot monk with a skill you usually dont use? Odd imo

standard prot? nah. i sometimes run a GoH boon prot (my usual monk of choice is the BL monk, btw), so i can function perfectly fine without Divine Boon turned on. most of the time i find that i can heal fine without it, so i leave it off until i do need it. it saves a lot of energy.